MOST OF US have something to hide—in our gardens, that is, some view of something we’d like to erase. It could be the telephone pole across the street that we can see from certain spots, or the neighbor’s driveway, or even something within our own property—the trash bins or who knows what.
Today’s guest, Basil Camu, has a suggestion: an inexpensive, quick-to-develop privacy screen started from a diverse mix of native saplings, sort of a hack of the concept of planting a pocket forest (above), which he’ll explain, too.
Basil is co-founder of Leaf & Limb tree-care company in Raleigh, N.C., and author of the book “From Wasteland to Wonder: Easy Ways We Can Help Heal Earth in the Sub/Urban Landscape.”
Leaf & Limb is a very different kind of tree service that doesn’t do tree takedowns and instead focuses on tree care through all phases of a tree’s life, and on innovative ways to use them in our landscapes to enhance biodiversity. Basil is also founder of a non-profit, Project Pando, which propagates and distributes some 10,000 native tree saplings annually from wild-collected seed, most going to nonprofits and ecological restoration efforts.
Read along as you listen to the Sept. 29, 2025 edition of my public-radio show and podcast using the player below. You can subscribe to all future editions on Apple Podcasts (iTunes) or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts here).
native privacy screens, with basil camu
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Margaret Roach: Well, this conversation is inspired by something that’s explored more deeply in your book “From Wasteland to Wonder,” and people can download a digital copy of your book; I believe it’s free of charge. For basically your cost, they can also order a physical copy.
But let’s just kind of get started on the basics that we can cram into our allotted time here [laughter]. It cracked me up that on your Leaf & Limb website, you have a page headlined, “Hedging Your Bets.” So maybe, yeah, maybe we should quickly sort of tell everyone what a pocket forest is. I think this idea of your version of a privacy screen is adapted from kind of a pocket forest world.
Basil: Right, exactly. It’s essentially the whole idea is planting lots of trees and shrubs, in the case of a pocket forest, or just shrubs, in the case of these privacy thickets. And the idea is you work with saplings. They’re very easy to plant, they’re very cheap. You can get excellent native diversity when you’re working with these young bare-root saplings, typically they’re going to be bare-root. You could do like quart size I suppose, or tubelings. Pinelands Nursery [wholesale] has tubelings, which I love. But the idea is just they’re small and they’re inexpensive, and you could plant 20, 30, 40 an hour.
So when you start comparing that against a normal planting approach; maybe I have a front yard, it’s 500 square feet. I could plant one large oak. Yes, I’d have that instant large tree in the front yard. But there’s all kinds of issues that come from that: root-bound plants and containers and establishment periods. We could talk a lot about that, but I’ll just skip it and say: or you could spend the same amount of money and time and plant a whole bunch of native trees and shrubs, and that’s more or less a pocket forest.
And from that, we’ve built out this privacy thicket idea, which is do the same thing, plant lots of little saplings, but limit them to shrubs, things that only grow maybe 20 feet.
Margaret: So things that can then be pruned as well, I assume. Yes?
Basil: Yeah. They have a lot of ability to be shaped and formed, and going full circle to where you opened, with the hedging your bets idea: This is sort of the foundation for how we got here. With privacy rows, we often find that they’re monocultures, meaning it’s just one species and it’s planted in a row. Often these species are not native. Sometimes they are, but anytime you’re planting with one kind of species in a row, if something happens to that species, maybe there’s a new pest in the area or it’s a droughty summer, and chances are all of the trees will be affected. Whereas if you plant a variety of species, then you can have some resilience built in. Maybe one species doesn’t make it, but if you’re using, I don’t know, 20 different shrub species, if one or two don’t make it, you still have plenty of backups.
Margaret: I think people who learned this, in a lot of our historic areas in the Southeast or Mid-Atlantic; I think this was a lesson learned the hard way with some historic boxwood hedging and so forth, right? Now there are these diseases, and oh my goodness, it can’t withstand them. And you’re losing not a little bit of the sort of architecture of your landscape, but all of it; it’s pretty drastic.
Basil: It is. And the call we get so frequently is, “Oh, my row of Arborvitae have died.” Or here we have a lot of Leyland cypress. So it’s a common thing with these privacy rows. So then you get to this next junction, which is, O.K., you’ve convinced me I want to use lots of species. Does that mean I’m going to have to spend a bunch more money on plants? And you could go that route. If you wanted to buy all large plants and go through all of that time, you could. But because we deal with real-world constraints, at Leaf & Limb, our clients never have more time or more money, we’ve had to find ways through that.
And using saplings is a really great way through that, because again, you don’t spend really more time or more money. You get the benefit having many different species. And then what we found, which is pretty remarkable, when you plant lots of these native saplings together, it is truly a rising tide lifts all boats situation. They just explode in growth.
And it makes sense. Plants growing together are supporting and helping and cooperating. All kinds of interesting research coming out about how mycorrhizal fungi facilitates nutrient transportation across species and plants taking care of each other. There’s a lot of cooperation happening within the world of plants, and nowhere is it more evident than watching one of these privacy thickets grow up.
Margaret: So when I’m doing this, how close am I planting and how deep a bed, so to speak? I mean, if I were making a hedge of some of the things you just mentioned, or the boxwood that I just mentioned, we kind of have an idea, because we know we could look up the ultimate width and so forth of that plant at maturity. What kind of a space should I allot, and how thick am I planting?
Basil: Great questions. General high-level overview of how this process works: Generally recommend at least 8 to 10 feet of width, and you can go as long as you want. So a classic depth by width might be, say 50 feet long by 8 feet wide.
Within that bed, we recommend laying down cardboard and a thick layer of arborist wood chips, plus some leaf compost, if you have it; you don’t have to have it. We recommend putting that down a month or two, maybe three, in advance so it can get nice and rotting and suppress all that vegetation and growing underneath. Then come back during the planting season and start putting the saplings in the ground.
We recommend spacing them out every 2 to 3 feet, and don’t plan it. It should be random. Yes, distribute different species evenly around. Let’s say you’re using, say, 10 different species, roughly distribute them so that they are spreading across the full length. But don’t try to perfectly plot where every sapling will go. There should be some randomness to it. It’s how nature works. I don’t think it hurts to plan it out, but I think randomness actually adds some resilience.
And then after you put those trees in the ground, we recommend marking them. We used to use landscape flags, now we’re actually using 4-foot orange-colored driveway markers. They’re more visible, more durable, and they can be reused time and time again. And the reason you want those is because you will need to know what you planted versus what you did not plant.
Margaret: [Laughter.] Oh boy, I know about that.
Basil: If you’re a seasoned plant expert, you don’t need those markers because you know what you did and didn’t plant. Most people are going to have a tough time discerning what they planted, versus the seeds that floated in on the sky and have started taking root. Using the markers makes it super-easy. Basically, if it’s not got a marker, pull it out.
Margaret: Right. Because here the squirrels and the blue jays would be planting acorns and stuff, and I’d have every other plant would be an oak-to-be [laughter].
Basil: Exactly. Yeah. So this takes the thinking out of it. It takes the plant ID out of it. For many people, plant ID is the big challenge, and especially (I know, you know this), the identification on a young plant versus a more mature plant, is quite challenging. So this just takes that whole bit out of it.
Now all you need to do is for the next two, maybe three growing seasons, make sure no other roots or invasive plant, excuse me, sorry, make sure no other trees or shrubs or invasive plants take hold in that space. And then after about two or three growing seasons, these privacy thickets are typically going to be in the range of 10 to 15 feet tall.
Margaret: Wow.
Basil: Yeah. It’s really fast. And they will close the sunlight down to the ground. Not much will be able to take root after that.
Margaret: I think of this in a way, a term that I used to use with a friend, Ken Druse. We wrote a book a million years ago; it was called “The Natural Habitat Garden”—like 30 years ago or something. And we use the term bio-hedge. And I think of these as the modern version of bio-hedge, and by that I just meant when I don’t make a hedge of one species, but I mix a lot of woody plants together and let them all—including vines in some cases, I used to also add vines, not just shrubs and trees—and let them kind of mingle and make edge habitat, mimicking edge habitat in nature. So I think of these as kind of like baby bio-hedges sprouting out from saplings.
Basil: Yeah. And that edge habitat is so important. When you go down the list of disappearing ecosystems, you see all the usual suspects. I mean, you could just name it basically, but one of the ones that just doesn’t make the headlines as much as are thickets in general. It’s really crucial space between field and forest where lots of birds and insects are overwintering or they’re laying young. It’s an important ecosystem.
And I got to say on that note, my favorite part about these spaces that we’re describing is you can see all of the bird life. With trees, often that bird life is so high you can’t see it as well. But these are short enough that you get a really great view on all the birds and insects that are enjoying the space, and it’s just remarkable.
Margaret: Are there some favorite plants that you’ve been using? And I mean, I know you’re in Raleigh and your clients are in that general vicinity and so forth, and people would have to adapt ideas with parallel species for their region,. But are there some plants that you’ve been especially thrilled with their performance in these bio-hedges? I mean these…here I’m calling them bio-hedges already [laughter].
Basil: No, that’s great. Yeah, we have a lot of go-tos. I think some of the ones you’d expect to do really well and usually do American beautyberry. Buttonbush does well, silky dogwood and spicebush, ninebark [above]. We love some of the Aronia, and there’s a few others. Possumhaw does pretty well here. I don’t know if you’d have that where you are.
Margaret: Do you know what the genus of possumhaw is?
Basil: Yeah, possumhaw is Viburnum nudum.
Margaret: Ah, O.K. Sure.
Basil: Yes, yes. Sorry, I’m using common names over-
Margaret: No, no, it’s fine. It didn’t ring a bell with me right away. So good. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.
Basil: Alder does really well, Alnus serrulata, I believe. Those are some of the ones that come to mind as just doing really well. Some do too well; we found that elderberry is almost just too much. We don’t use that anymore.
Margaret: Yeah. [Laughter.] I love to have it; I think it’s a must on the property if you’re into birds and insects and it’s a wonder, a wonderful plant, the native elderberry. It’s just I think you have to give it its own big area to romp in because it’s kind of a thug, a little bit of a thug. But boy, when it comes into flower, you could stand under that and just listen to the sounds of so many creatures buzzing in there and being happy. And it’s a great plant.
Basil: It’s amazing. I do love the plant. It’s just a bit aggressive.
Margaret: Yeah.
Basil: I’ll add two more layers to this that are worth noting. One, maintenance requirements are virtually nil. You can do pruning if you want to, and because there’s so many plants, you can be as rough as you want. If you want to just push it back and make a straight line; shouldn’t be a problem. I am a little more selective in my pruning. I like to keep natural form and I let it spread a little bit, but it’s very malleable. Maintenance requirements are quite low. You don’t even have to prune.
One other layer I want to add is that most of your listeners are experts in many of these topics, but what I think one of the valuable parts of this system is it’s a great way to get people into this work who don’t care about native plants. We have found that we might get a call from a prospective client and they’re like, “Hey, I want a row of Arborvitae,” and it’s a great entry point to, “Oh, well, what if you could choose something else that has more resilience and isn’t going to cost anymore?” And they’re like, “Yeah, it sounds great.” And then next thing, they’ve got this hedge of native plants bursting with birds and pollinators, and they’re getting pulled into this world of native plants. So it’s kind of a good Trojan horse, I think, for people who are not into this kind of stuff.
Margaret: You mentioned the saplings, and you mentioned one nursery at one point earlier. Are these saplings becoming easier to find than they may be once were, because obviously a lot of nurseries like to sell a larger plant. So where does one go shopping for this or whatever? Are mail-order nurseries doing this? [Above, saplings being grown at Leaf & Limb’s Project Pando.]
Basil: There are increasingly more, so most states will have a program through the state forest service that will offer these. Those are fantastic. I do really love Pinelands Nursery. They grow native plants and their prices are reasonable. They’re tubelings. If they don’t have the native plant you want, you can actually send them seeds, they’ll grow the plants for you at the same price. [Note: If you use a landscape contractor, they can order for you from Pinelands, which sells only wholesale.]
Margaret: Oh my goodness.
Basil: Yeah, they’re great. And then locally here in North Carolina, we have some fantastic options. I’m not going to list them, mainly because I don’t think they’d be relevant to many of your listeners, but I do think meta level, we are seeing a rise in native plant availability and more so at the sapling level than at the containerized and B-and-B level. That’s been my anecdotal observations.
Margaret: And one thing I always throw in on this subject of sourcing is that connecting to your native plant society, which most of the state native plant society websites have a resource or source kind of tab in their navigation. So finding your Maryland or your Connecticut or your whatever native plant society, and I can give a link on how to find your state one, a lot of them do have information on plant sales and plant nurseries in that state for that state’s plants.
Basil: Yeah, that’s a great point. Also, local garden clubs.
Margaret: Exactly. Plant sales and swaps and all kinds of things.
Basil: University extensions agents will often have some good recommendations. And don’t forget Reddit. Reddit’s got a really big, growing community of native enthusiasts.
Margaret: [Laughter.] I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that.
Basil: Yeah, there’s a huge subreddit. It’s the native plant subreddit. I don’t know offhand, I want to say about 150,000 users in that. So yeah, lots of stuff online, and I think you’re right, native plant societies are probably one of the best places to start.
Margaret: Do you tend to, when you try to pick your palette of plants, going back to some of the ones that you recommend, do always put 10 different kinds or whatever? Or do you sometimes just do three or five? Tell us a little bit more about that.
Because for instance, I love birds and I love fruiting plants, and I have a lot of big, big, big, big groups of winterberry hollies and Aronia and things like that, and different viburnums. Have you ever done ones that just really feature the flowers followed by the fruit kind of thing? Have you ever done any that are more thematic, so to speak?
Basil: Yes, definitely. Our themes are usually sort of more in ecological function terms. Maybe a client needs just fast-growing for maximum hill stabilization or something.
The short answer is, this is like making a salad. There’s no right or wrong way to do it. It may be a better salad or a worse salad, but it’s probably still going to be a salad [laughter]. That’s the broad version. I also know a lot of people don’t like broad answers like that, so I’ll give you a different answer, which is if you wanted to get particular, I think you should aim for more than say 10 or 15 species to get that resilience.
I don’t think it has to be, but I personally, I actually prefer over 20, but we’re a little bit unique here in that we are able to grow our own. We use air-pruning beds and we collect our own seeds. This is in addition to the nonprofit, which does the same, but for our internal purposes, we also do this. So we are able to grow almost whatever we want. It’s very fortunate. I think most people are a little bit, they’re going to be at the mercy of the nursery’s availability. So don’t let great be the enemy of good. If you can only get five native species, fine, it’s better than one.
Margaret: What if you want, even in winter, for there to be some coverage? Are there any evergreen components that you’ve found useful?
Basil: Yeah, inevitably, I think, I don’t know if this is true across the U.S., but here where I live, the cross between native and evergreen is really limited.
We only have a couple wax myrtles and I don’t know Carolina cherry laurel. There aren’t many, but it turns out that people think they need the evergreen. But what we have found both anecdotally and in the research is that it’s more psychological than actual physical. Just simply having the barrier there makes you feel as if you have your privacy. So that’s one part of the answer.
The other part of my answer is that as these systems grow, they get very tangled and dense. So there is an actual component of physical privacy there as well, whether or not you have evergreen plants,
Margaret: It’s almost like a living fence then even in the offseason, isn’t it?
Basil: Yeah, exactly.
Margaret: The woody tangle.
Basil: Yeah. What would we have observed and heard from our clients is can you see through it? If you try, yes, but does it matter? No, it’s the same sense of privacy and enclosure.
Margaret: So I don’t necessarily have to have an evergreen component.
Basil: Once it’s grown, you don’t have to. We do if we can, but I don’t know. We just don’t have many options.
Margaret: No, and that is when you get to the natives versus the non-natives where there are more ornamental, non-native choices that way. But yeah, you’re right.
The blueberries: What about blueberries? I don’t know if you mentioned them. Do you ever use them? They’re not as tall as some of the other things you mentioned, even when they’re at their maximum.
Basil: Yeah, I totally forgot about the food category. We love adding food if a client is interested, because not only is it fun to be able to have food, but then you can share it with your neighbors. So native plums, blueberries, we’ll absolutely interweave some edible plants if that’s within the scope of the project.
Margaret: I don’t think I’ve ever harvested a single blueberry that’s made its way into my mouth because I have so many competitors out there on the wing and on four legs with fur who get them all. I’ve got blueberries all over the place here, but they were planted as wildlife plants, do you know what I mean? They were planted for their biodiversity element, not for me to eat [laughter].
Basil: I have not, I’ve never been able to harvest from my bushes, either, quite frankly. But we do get plums. Plums are a little more abundant. So those have been really great.
Margaret: What about fall color? Is that another thing that you ever take into consideration?
Basil: Yeah, sometimes. Again, it’s going to depend a little bit on objectives, but if we’re going to do fall color, yeah, then we’re going to start thinking about sumac is just one of our favorites for that; ninebark. There’s just some fun species you can play with. This is the beauty of this system. You can make it really basic and simple. You can also, if you’re a designer, you can just go to town. There’s all kinds of amazing objectives you could satisfy.
Margaret: In the book, I know you go into more depth about this subject as well as many other subjects, in the book “From Wasteland to Wonder” that people can either download or to order a copy at your cost. So what more depth about this subject do you go into in that, that we’ll learn about if we order or download a copy?
Basil: Well, it does have the full planting specifications, a lot more detail about when and where and how to do things. So I think today we’ve hit the high level, but if you want to just get into the nitty-gritty, the book will give that.
It also does have some aspirational ideas, like for those who are so inclined, and I bet a lot of listeners would be, you can grow your own species and it’s really fun, and then that gives you a lot of steering power over what you plant. That’s also in the book, and like you said, the book is free download or if you’d like the hard copy, which is meant to be used in the garden, it’s just cost of print.
And just so users and listeners know sort of the intention behind the book, it’s meant to rethink how we do tree care and land care in a way that’s more in tune with natural systems to help heal Earth, and then ultimately to save time and money, because these systems generally save time and money.
Margaret: Yes, and I’ll give a link also to some of our previous conversations, including one about respecting and nurturing trees through all the phases of their life, as I mentioned briefly in the introduction: not taking down our dead and dying trees—except in areas where there’s danger that they pose, but to let them continue to serve their very important role as they decline and so forth in the ecosystem. So I’ll give a link to that conversation as well. I think that’s another key part of something you and I both believe in so strongly.
Basil: Absolutely.
Margaret: Well, Basil, I’m sure you have to go out and prune something [laughter] or climb something or I don’t know what I mean, you must be…it’s that time of year, right? Busy time.
Basil: It’s the busy time, but it’s always a privilege and an honor to be here, so thank you for having me.
Margaret: Well, you’re very sweet. I’ll talk to you again soon, I hope. Thank you.
past conversations with basil camu
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MY WEEKLY public-radio show, rated a “top-5 garden podcast” by “The Guardian” newspaper in the UK, began its 16th year in March 2025. It’s produced at Robin Hood Radio, the smallest NPR station in the nation. Listen locally in the Hudson Valley (NY)-Berkshires (MA)-Litchfield Hills (CT) Mondays at 8:30 AM Eastern, rerun at 8:30 Saturdays. Or play the Sept. 29, 2025 show using the player near the top of this transcript. You can subscribe to all future editions on iTunes/Apple Podcasts or Spotify (and browse my archive of podcasts here).
